Religion, Politics, and Armegeddon

Hey I thought we could use a thread titled this for all of us opinionated musicians. I figured it would keep other threads from straying off topic. Remember to respect everybody and keep it civilized.

BTW, Jewish people what are Yamakuhs (sp?) all about? They can't be a fashion statement. ;) Where did they originate? I'm a (non-particpating) Catholic. If that actually counts for anything. God only knows I guess

George Bush is a warmongering idiot who started WW3 but doesn't know it yet.

End of the world as we know it 6-10 years.

Originally Posted by: magicninjaHey I thought we could use a thread titled this for all of us opinionated musicians. I figured it would keep other threads from straying off topic. Remember to respect everybody and keep it civilized.


George Bush is a warmongering idiot who started WW3 but doesn't know it yet.

End of the world as we know it 6-10 years.

Yeah thats a good suggestion....

BTW...the terrorist has started it all, So it's hard for me to blame Bush, Blair or any government in the world for staging an all out war against them. I think it's just normal for a leader to defend the peace and security of his people...well its just an opinion.

Armaggedon will be the final battle between good and evil. WW3 maybe? lol

According to False prophets, the end of the world will be on 2041 or 2044? , so nothing to worry about, you still have 35+ years to play your guitar :D ...unless Nostradamus prediction was correct that the end of the world will be on 3075.

All specualtion, but the truth is "no one knows the hour or day." Peace be to all.

Originally Posted by: magicninja I figured it would keep other threads from straying off topic.

The probability of that happening is slim to none here.

Originally Posted by: AkiraI'd say Bush and Blair are the real "terrorists", the middle eastern "terrorists" are nothing more than freedom fighters.

Btw, everytime I say the above I get "oh so you support Saddam then?!", No, I do not and have never supported Saddam's evil regime.

Oh so you sup.....j/k. I agree. I remember that small country that was going through a rebellion not too long ago and the people were at the brink of winning, so Bush had to step in and help their government out. Obviously if the people are rebeling, theres something not right.

My concern is that the thousands of nukes and material to make more are still just sitting in Russia. Well let's hope they're still sitting there. It's only a matter of time before one of those falls in the wrong hands.

And freedom fighters? C'mon...they're not fighting for freedom. They're fighting for total anihilation of life and culture. And passivity doesn't matter...they'll just as quickly blow up (or kill any other creative way they can think of) anyone who isn't one of them.

Religion is a bunch of bull.... nothing but pedophile 'priests' who want an excuse to make money and diddle around with little boys.
These guys on TV who spout the 'lord' and healing and all that crap are nothing but con men.... there is no god, there's no devil... there's no nothing.
All that stuff is fantasy pupotrated by people with alterior motives.

Although I'll say one thing.... without it, this world would be a screwed up place because the fear of the 'lord' is what keeps a lot of people in check.

My general attitude is 'prove it'. If there's a god..then show me. If there's a lord... show me. If Jesus was nothing more than a showman with the gift of gab, then prove it to me.

On the opposite side of the fence is creation in itself.
The universe and the whole meaning of life is so far beyond our comprehension that it would be impossible to understand.... like teaching an ant how to read shakespeare.
People just need something to believe in or their whole belief system falls apart and they have nothing to show for themselves and no purpose in their lives so they jump on the closest bandwagon... which is usually the concept of religion.

So yeah, I'm an atheist if you wanna call it that.... but in reality I'm a normal guy who wants proof. Show me something that makes me go 'holy crap... so that's what life is' and I'll believe you.
Otherwise, it's just nonsense that humans have made up.

i'll try to stay out of this 1, as an iranian you could already pretty much guess how i feel about bush and blair. I barely survived the iran-iraq war, and it seems alot of you have forgotten that the US supported saddam back then. As they did the taleban during the afghan-russian war.

Well, I got into all this crap before about Bush.
Apparently I pissed off a lot of people.

But my opinion stands... that guys after nothing but world domination and he doesn't care how he gets it.
The whole wmd fabrication.... even Clinton thinks the guys a dickhead.

Originally Posted by: AkiraI'd say Bush and Blair are the real "terrorists", the middle eastern "terrorists" are nothing more than freedom fighters.[/quote]
So who's freedom exactly is an al Quieda in Iraq "freedom fighter" fighting for when he intentionally mortars innocent [Shi'ite or Kurdish] civilians as they sleep in their homes at night?


[QUOTE=Akira]Btw, everytime I say the above I get "oh so you support Saddam then?!", No, I do not and have never supported Saddam's evil regime.

But you're not actually willing to do anything about it.

Originally Posted by: scarface84i'll try to stay out of this 1, as an iranian you could already pretty much guess how i feel about bush and blair. I barely survived the iran-iraq war, and it seems alot of you have forgotten that the US supported saddam back then.[/quote]
As did Russia, France, Germany, North Korea, China and virtually anybody else who was in the arms business.


[QUOTE=scarface84]As they did the taleban during the afghan-russian war.

Correction:

The CIA funneled money into Afghanistan by giving it to the Pakistanis. The Pakistanis picked who the money went to.

I really fail to see how giving money to a people who truely are fighting for their freedom is a bad thing. Our sin here was not standing by them for the rebuilding process (and thus allowing the events that gave the Talaban control to take place).

About the war...no one is "snow white" here.Everyone has their hands dirty and is flicking it in each others faces.The terrorists want there global religion and system.Westerners want theirs.

I think its improtant to note that there are and have been many different terrorist groups in many countrys.There is the ano,mko,hamas,gia,aum(you might have seen on tv the aum subway nerve agent incident) e.c.t.So i can't see anyone one person or group starting anything...mabey roles played.The WOT isn't WW3...far too vague(really,theres no hiroshimas happening....yet).

Also,there are alot of gaps in the U.S's response to 911.I often wonder if the U.S had some involvment.Not a hardcore conspiracy theory of mine,but a little reading into how we responded might leave more questions than answers(why didn't we get jets up faster,why we ignored many warnings e.c.t)

We have no business being in iraq...none at all.We DID go to war on bad intelligence at the very least(if not a full out lie).To think that the majority of iraqi's want the U.S bumming around the country drawing more fire than an arsonist is foolish.

1 or even 3 nuclear weapons is far from armageddon.It would be a disaster,but I doubt it would spark the second coming of christ...and on to that.

Religion is what it is....order,ritual and obediance.A system,for salvation,damnation,living,dying,thinking and many times,not thinking.It revolves around a community and is not personal.Belief is personal and pertains to the individual.There are belief "systems",but again,that falls into religion/community.

I can't see god,but from what I can see and my lack of knowlege about it(the vastness of space e.c.t)leads me to have a "doubting" faith in something bigger.

and i'm done for now...amen.

Originally Posted by: PonyOnejust to make my point clearer... read this, pulled off the news today... how is blowing up thirty Iraqi civilians freedom fighting?

Because the more we ignore that this is the Jihadist agenda, the less we have to see them as groups that maybe we should be fighting?

I hate politics

I no longer believe in religion

armeggedon isn't coming yet

the end...

Originally Posted by: 6strngs_2hmbkrsI no longer believe in religion.

You're an atheist now? When did that happen?

**** religion.....no one knows god or if there is a creator....we are all very small in the big picture(the "KNOWN" universe)....... the afterlife???....what would be the point... you die, conscience ends for you and that is it. if you don't like it, make up a religion like the others were made up and go with it. p.s. love is a good thing

{Mod edit: Bypassing the language filter is not allowed. Be carefull with the rest of your language too.}

Originally Posted by: HammurabiYou're an atheist now? When did that happen?

in the "and that's it?" thread... and I'm more agnostic then anything, but each day I lean a little more towards atheism.

[QUOTE=z0s0_jp{Mod edit: Bypassing the language filter is not allowed. Be carefull with the rest of your language too.} [/QUOTE]
sorry, won't happen again.....i can only speak for myself though ;)

two words ...... (the real enemy) :mad:

"Dammit Jim!! I'm a guitarist not a roadie...so haul my gear"

Permalink

Originally Posted by: RaskolnikovAs did Russia, France, Germany, North Korea, China and virtually anybody else who was in the arms business.[/QUOTE]

Does that make it right then? no one helped saddam more than the US back then, ask rumsfeld, saddams best friend in the 80's. :p


[QUOTE=Raskolnikov]Correction:

The CIA funneled money into Afghanistan by giving it to the Pakistanis. The Pakistanis picked who the money went to.

I really fail to see how giving money to a people who truely are fighting for their freedom is a bad thing. Our sin here was not standing by them for the rebuilding process (and thus allowing the events that gave the Talaban control to take place).

So it's ok to just give money to anyone who says they're fighting for freedom? Alot of the "freedom fighters" were criminals, warlords,, taleban etc. back then. During the US-afghan war, the people paid by the US to fight the taleban and al-qaeda were criminals, warlords, rapists, drug barons, u name it.

Originally Posted by: scarface84

Originally Posted by: RaskolnikovAs did Russia, France, Germany, North Korea, China and virtually anybody else who was in the arms business.[/QUOTE]
Does that make it right then?[/quote]
No.

But does removing it from context and distorting the truth somehow make all that happened better? Can we really expect all the world's nations to learn the correct lessons from went on here if we remove the blame from the nations who sold Saddam his VX nerve gas, most of his biological weapons, his nuclear reactor, his state of the art jet fighters, his artillery, his tanks, his Scuds (etc, etc, etc), and place the blame solely on the United States?

Originally Posted by: scarface84no one helped saddam more than the US back then, ask rumsfeld, saddams best friend in the 80's. :p

1. Saddam had far better friends back then than the US; some of whom continued to sells arms to Iraq illegally after the first Gulf War (Russia) and others who were already negotiating post-sanctions arms sales (France).

Whatever our fault here, we at least had the sense to cut our support for Saddam after Halabja. Most of the rest of the international community seems to have prefered to profit as much as possible from the conflict no matter how many people died, how they died or what the long term consequences may be.

2. Reagan gave that Anthrax sample to Saddam against the advice of most of his government including -- if my memory serves me correctly -- Donald Rumsfeld. I'll have to double-check this, but as far as I know, he's just the poor bastard who had to go shake hands with Saddam (or was it one of his body-doubles?).


[QUOTE=scarface84][QUOTE=Raskolnikov]Correction:

The CIA funneled money into Afghanistan by giving it to the Pakistanis. The Pakistanis picked who the money went to.

I really fail to see how giving money to a people who truely are fighting for their freedom is a bad thing. Our sin here was not standing by them for the rebuilding process (and thus allowing the events that gave the Talaban control to take place).

So it's ok to just give money to anyone who says they're fighting for freedom? Alot of the "freedom fighters" were criminals, warlords,, taleban etc. back then. During the US-afghan war, the people paid by the US to fight the taleban and al-qaeda were criminals, warlords, rapists, drug barons, u name it.

Unfortunately, in situations like these your choices are not usually "bad" and "good" but rather "bad" and "worse." It's pretty easy to say "man, that was dumb" in hindsight (Iraq vs. Iran is a great example) but in the moment and in the context telling which choice is which is rarely easy -- you'll note that after the defeat of the Taliban, we've subsequently had to turn around and fight many of those "warlords, rapists, drug barons, u name it" types.

Was the better alternative really to do nothing? To continue to allow a regime to give bin Laden and his kind a base to train terrorists and to launch attacks against us?


I can look back at many of the decisions Bush has made about the war against terrorism and how he's carried it out and disagree. I think he should be doing much more on the "hearts and minds" side of things, but the fact is that some people's hearts and minds will never be changed and so their actions against us will only be stopped by violent force or the credible threat of violent force.