Barre chord question

Guitar Tricks Forum > Music Theory > Barre chord question

faith83

Peace, Love & John Denver

Joined: 04/23/20

Posts: 289

If I lift my ring finger and play an open G string on a 5th string barre chord, does that turn the barre chord into a 7th in the same way that an open G turns A into A7?

"You can get what you want or you can just get old." Billy Joel

#1

If I lift my ring finger and play an open G string on a 5th string barre chord, does that turn the barre chord into a 7th in the same way that an open G turns A into A7?

"You can get what you want or you can just get old." Billy Joel

snojones

Full Access

Joined: 04/17/13

Posts: 293

YES. That is the real advantage of a guitar over other instruments. If a fingering works in one place, it should work in others as well. Piano makes it easier to find all the notes, but you have to learn how to play in each specific scale in each specific key. A G scale pattern on piano keyboard is diffrent from a C scale pattern (a diffrent arrangement of black and white keys). You can't just move the G major pattern over a few keys and expect to play a major scale. On guitar the opposite is true. Move any pattern up or down the guitar neck and you can play in any key with that pattern.

It also goes for all barr chords like a bar G7, that is the real utility of using barr chords. Any open chord with a properly placed barr can be moved up and down the neck and sound that chord properly. So, for example, if you place a barr under an A7 chord pattern and slide it up the neck 2 frets, you have a B7 chord. Go 2 more frets and you have a C#7. It really helps to think of barr chords in this way. All they really are is open chords with a pointer finger filling the role of a Capo. This in fact goes for all the open chords if you can figure out how to properly hold the Barr in the right place.

I hope this is helpful. It is difficult for me to explain without demonstration. Nothing like the inter webz to show the limitations of written language in explaining techincal details that would be simple in person.

#2

YES. That is the real advantage of a guitar over other instruments. If a fingering works in one place, it should work in others as well. Piano makes it easier to find all the notes, but you have to learn how to play in each specific scale in each specific key. A G scale pattern on piano keyboard is diffrent from a C scale pattern (a diffrent arrangement of black and white keys). You can't just move the G major pattern over a few keys and expect to play a major scale. On guitar the opposite is true. Move any pattern up or down the guitar neck and you can play in any key with that pattern.

It also goes for all barr chords like a bar G7, that is the real utility of using barr chords. Any open chord with a properly placed barr can be moved up and down the neck and sound that chord properly. So, for example, if you place a barr under an A7 chord pattern and slide it up the neck 2 frets, you have a B7 chord. Go 2 more frets and you have a C#7. It really helps to think of barr chords in this way. All they really are is open chords with a pointer finger filling the role of a Capo. This in fact goes for all the open chords if you can figure out how to properly hold the Barr in the right place.

I hope this is helpful. It is difficult for me to explain without demonstration. Nothing like the inter webz to show the limitations of written language in explaining techincal details that would be simple in person.

faith83

Peace, Love & John Denver

Joined: 04/23/20

Posts: 289

Thanks, and yes, I get all of that (although I did tear my hair out initially thinking that "anywhere on the neck" meant any string, any note on the neck, not just any fret...). I was just checking in case there was some hidden rule about 7ths that I didn't know, since I didn't recall it being mentioned when Lisa brought up the barre chords in Fundamentals 2.

"You can get what you want or you can just get old." Billy Joel

#3

Thanks, and yes, I get all of that (although I did tear my hair out initially thinking that "anywhere on the neck" meant any string, any note on the neck, not just any fret...). I was just checking in case there was some hidden rule about 7ths that I didn't know, since I didn't recall it being mentioned when Lisa brought up the barre chords in Fundamentals 2.

"You can get what you want or you can just get old." Billy Joel

ChristopherSchlegel

Guitar Tricks Instructor

Joined: 08/09/05

Posts: 6509

Originally Posted by: faith83

If I lift my ring finger and play an open G string on a 5th string barre chord, does that turn the barre chord into a 7th in the same way that an open G turns A into A7?

If you mean what I think you mean, then yes. But, assuming you mean this A major shaped barre chord, with this fingering.

|--5--(i)----|

|--7--(p)---|

|--7--(r)----|

|--7--(m)--|

|--5--(i)----|

|------------|

Lifting your ring finger would cause the G string to ring at the 5th fret and that would be a minor 7th in relation to the root note, resulting in a dominant 7th chord.

|--5--(i)----|

|--7--(p)---|

|--5--(i)----|

|--7--(m)--|

|--5--(i)----|

|------------|

Chord tones:

|--5--(5)---|

|--7--(3)---|

|--5--(7)---|

|--7--(5)---|

|--5--(1)---|

|------------|

I cover the basics of movable dominant 7th chords in this tutorial.

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=499

Hope this helps!

Christopher Schlegel
Guitar Tricks Instructor

Christopher Schlegel Lesson Directory

#4

Originally Posted by: faith83

If I lift my ring finger and play an open G string on a 5th string barre chord, does that turn the barre chord into a 7th in the same way that an open G turns A into A7?

If you mean what I think you mean, then yes. But, assuming you mean this A major shaped barre chord, with this fingering.

|--5--(i)----|

|--7--(p)---|

|--7--(r)----|

|--7--(m)--|

|--5--(i)----|

|------------|

Lifting your ring finger would cause the G string to ring at the 5th fret and that would be a minor 7th in relation to the root note, resulting in a dominant 7th chord.

|--5--(i)----|

|--7--(p)---|

|--5--(i)----|

|--7--(m)--|

|--5--(i)----|

|------------|

Chord tones:

|--5--(5)---|

|--7--(3)---|

|--5--(7)---|

|--7--(5)---|

|--5--(1)---|

|------------|

I cover the basics of movable dominant 7th chords in this tutorial.

https://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=499

Hope this helps!

Christopher Schlegel
Guitar Tricks Instructor

Christopher Schlegel Lesson Directory

faith83

Peace, Love & John Denver

Joined: 04/23/20

Posts: 289

It does, thank you Christopher, as always, for your excellent coaching. It sure sounds like a 7th chord, but I wanted to make sure there wasn't some secret rule about sevenths that affected things...

"You can get what you want or you can just get old." Billy Joel

#5

It does, thank you Christopher, as always, for your excellent coaching. It sure sounds like a 7th chord, but I wanted to make sure there wasn't some secret rule about sevenths that affected things...

"You can get what you want or you can just get old." Billy Joel

snojones

Full Access

Joined: 04/17/13

Posts: 293

You mean like sevenths were on the Deans Werner's "Double Secret Probation List"for music ? Would that make them the like members of the "Deltas"? Let us not forget the immortal words of Senator Blutoski "Was it over when the Germans bombed Prearl Harbor?! HELL NO!"

#6

You mean like sevenths were on the Deans Werner's "Double Secret Probation List"for music ? Would that make them the like members of the "Deltas"? Let us not forget the immortal words of Senator Blutoski "Was it over when the Germans bombed Prearl Harbor?! HELL NO!"

faith83

Peace, Love & John Denver

Joined: 04/23/20

Posts: 289

Originally Posted by: snojones

You mean like sevenths were on the Deans Werner's "Double Secret Probation List"for music ? Would that make them the like members of the "Deltas"? Let us not forget the immortal words of Senator Blutoski "Was it over when the Germans bombed Prearl Harbor?! HELL NO!"

LMAO!!!!! I don't trust the guitar fretboard, not as far as I can throw it. It's still crazy troll logic to me, compared to the nice, orderly, sensible piano keyboard.

"You can get what you want or you can just get old." Billy Joel

#7

Originally Posted by: snojones

You mean like sevenths were on the Deans Werner's "Double Secret Probation List"for music ? Would that make them the like members of the "Deltas"? Let us not forget the immortal words of Senator Blutoski "Was it over when the Germans bombed Prearl Harbor?! HELL NO!"

LMAO!!!!! I don't trust the guitar fretboard, not as far as I can throw it. It's still crazy troll logic to me, compared to the nice, orderly, sensible piano keyboard.

"You can get what you want or you can just get old." Billy Joel

JeffS65

Full Access

Joined: 10/07/08

Posts: 1406

Originally Posted by: faith83
Originally Posted by: snojones

You mean like sevenths were on the Deans Werner's "Double Secret Probation List"for music ? Would that make them the like members of the "Deltas"? Let us not forget the immortal words of Senator Blutoski "Was it over when the Germans bombed Prearl Harbor?! HELL NO!"

LMAO!!!!! I don't trust the guitar fretboard, not as far as I can throw it. It's still crazy troll logic to me, compared to the nice, orderly, sensible piano keyboard.

My first wife (married, widowed, remarried) once said when she was starting to learning guitar, that the piano was so linear and sensible. I can't say I'm a whiz at piano but I did see her point. Then I pointed out that Keith Richard wouldn't look half as cool with a keytar around his neck. I won that debate

#8

Originally Posted by: faith83
Originally Posted by: snojones

You mean like sevenths were on the Deans Werner's "Double Secret Probation List"for music ? Would that make them the like members of the "Deltas"? Let us not forget the immortal words of Senator Blutoski "Was it over when the Germans bombed Prearl Harbor?! HELL NO!"

LMAO!!!!! I don't trust the guitar fretboard, not as far as I can throw it. It's still crazy troll logic to me, compared to the nice, orderly, sensible piano keyboard.

My first wife (married, widowed, remarried) once said when she was starting to learning guitar, that the piano was so linear and sensible. I can't say I'm a whiz at piano but I did see her point. Then I pointed out that Keith Richard wouldn't look half as cool with a keytar around his neck. I won that debate

snojones

Full Access

Joined: 04/17/13

Posts: 293

Sticking up for guitars and delving further into the rediculious....

Keytars an exercise in failed ideas. Nothing cool about giving up an entire hand of fingers in an attempt to look cool. Just try playing with your teeth or behind your back!! Ever seen a pianist throw their ax into their amplifier druing a performance?! That and the fact it doesn't even look like a guitar! Wow, look at me I just gave up half my available notes and I still can't do a windmill strums like Pete Townsend. Isn't that the very definition of a poser?! enough said.

Not to say the piano players are anything but cool. Ray Charles, Elton, Billy, Carol King, and Jerry Lee never lacked for cool. Yes, the piano has the C scale very clearly laid out and it has a very cool percussive sound. It is easier to learn the names of the notes because there are just about half as many choices and they are laid out in black and white. There is a reason they teach university throry classes around the piano.

However just try and transpose anything into the key of F# or Bb, on the fly and you will see where the strength of the guitar neck comes into play. Piano requires an entirely new fingering to deal with varrious diffrent musical keys. Talk about confusing..... I fear there are scarry theory based double sharps and flats lying in wait just beyond the first measure of that project. Dean Wormer would be proud.

#9

Sticking up for guitars and delving further into the rediculious....

Keytars an exercise in failed ideas. Nothing cool about giving up an entire hand of fingers in an attempt to look cool. Just try playing with your teeth or behind your back!! Ever seen a pianist throw their ax into their amplifier druing a performance?! That and the fact it doesn't even look like a guitar! Wow, look at me I just gave up half my available notes and I still can't do a windmill strums like Pete Townsend. Isn't that the very definition of a poser?! enough said.

Not to say the piano players are anything but cool. Ray Charles, Elton, Billy, Carol King, and Jerry Lee never lacked for cool. Yes, the piano has the C scale very clearly laid out and it has a very cool percussive sound. It is easier to learn the names of the notes because there are just about half as many choices and they are laid out in black and white. There is a reason they teach university throry classes around the piano.

However just try and transpose anything into the key of F# or Bb, on the fly and you will see where the strength of the guitar neck comes into play. Piano requires an entirely new fingering to deal with varrious diffrent musical keys. Talk about confusing..... I fear there are scarry theory based double sharps and flats lying in wait just beyond the first measure of that project. Dean Wormer would be proud.

faith83

Peace, Love & John Denver

Joined: 04/23/20

Posts: 289

Originally Posted by: snojones

Ever seen a pianist throw their ax into their amplifier druing a performance?!

Actually, yes. Billy Joel, 1987, Moscow. ;-)

"I've trashed that keyboard a dozen times or more during a show, but I do it once in the USSR and it's an international incident." --BJ

The keytar, though. Um... that's a hard pass, LOL!

"You can get what you want or you can just get old." Billy Joel

#10

Originally Posted by: snojones

Ever seen a pianist throw their ax into their amplifier druing a performance?!

Actually, yes. Billy Joel, 1987, Moscow. ;-)

"I've trashed that keyboard a dozen times or more during a show, but I do it once in the USSR and it's an international incident." --BJ

The keytar, though. Um... that's a hard pass, LOL!

"You can get what you want or you can just get old." Billy Joel