minor scales Major chords

OK I’ve been thinking about this for quite awhile now: Why does the Pentatonic minor scale or blues scale (which is also a minor scale) sound so good over certain Major chord progressions (e.g. I, IV, V)?

My thoughts on this are that the Pentatonic minor and Blues scale although they both have a flattened 3rd (which makes them minor scales) they do not have a 2nd note. This I think makes them more ambiguous sounding compared to the Natural minor scale, for example, which does have a 2nd note which emphasises the minor nature of the scale.

Anyone else have any theories why these two minor scales sound good over some Major chords?

Originally Posted by: Ian HandOK I’ve been thinking about this for quite awhile now: Why does the Pentatonic minor scale or blues scale (which is also a minor scale) sound so good over certain Major chord progressions (e.g. I, IV, V)?[/QUOTE]
I covered that in a few tutorials:

http://www.guitartricks.com/lesson.php?input=9940
http://www.guitartricks.com/lesson.php?input=10019
http://www.guitartricks.com/lesson.php?input=10023

Originally Posted by: Ian Hand
My thoughts on this are that the Pentatonic minor and Blues scale although they both have a flattened 3rd (which makes them minor scales) they do not have a 2nd note. This I think makes them more ambiguous sounding compared to the Natural minor scale, for example, which does have a 2nd note which emphasises the minor nature of the scale.

You have this backwards. The 2nd scale degree is more "ambiguous" than the 3rd. Any scale that includes the 3rd STRONGLY suggests a minor or major "flavor". In fact the 3rd scale degree is frequently (if not always) THE defining note deciding if a scale or mode sounds fundamentally major or minor.
[QUOTE=Ian Hand]Anyone else have any theories why these two minor scales sound good over some Major chords?

There are two reasons.

1. Ornamental function - the minor 3rd and minor 7th from the minor pentatonic scales played in the context of a major scale & chord progression are half-step approach tones. The basic idea is that one targets a note, say the major 3rd, but plays the minor 3rd right before it for an bit of "delayed" or "prolonged" satisfaction. Or, for a bit of "bluesy" dissonance that then gets resolved afterward. This is the origin of the "blue note" idea. The flat five can also function like this.

2. Structural function - the minor 3rd and minor 7th are used as preparation tones leading to resolutions. This is why dominant 7 chords are so frequent in blues and jazz (and even more so in classical music if you know how to look for it!). Making any given chord in a progression a dominant or altered 7 chord so that it can function as the V of the next chord in the progression is a common musical practice. In blues and jazz frequently this is really the only structural thing actually happening.

Thanks for the reply - that makes a lot of sense. A lot of books and articles just seem to gloss over the fact that these are minor scales being played over Major chords.

I'm still slightly puzzled though. Would not the same rules that you described for the Pentatonic minor and the Blues scale apply to a scale like the Dorian Mode (or the minor Jazz scale as it's sometimes called)? This scale/mode has the same notes as the Pentatonic minor but with an added 2nd and 6th note/degree but sounds absolutelty awful over Major chord progressions. :confused:

Mr. Schlegel has got you covered in his post. I would like to expand off of some of his points which I find invaluable to this topic,
such as Leading tones, dissonance, resolution and the use of 7th chords.
Example: When using a I-IV-V chord progression, Say A-D-E, by adding the b7th note to the chord structure, you still have the Major triad notes, only adding the b7th to it. So, "A" Major has A-C#-E and A7 has
A-C#-E-G, which is still an "A" Major structure but becomes less stable from the added tension to the triad (think of it as a tripod with something added onto one of the legs, wanting to resolve and restablize). Certain notes bring more tension than others by dissonance and require a stronger resolution for stability. The b5th of the Blues scale (Blue Note) screams to be resolved as a harmonic interval and still sounds odd to me when used as a melodic interval.
When you study using the dominant seventh chord (a b7th note altering the Major scale that the parent chord derives from), your focus should change from the Major scale to a Mode because the Major scale has been altered. In this case, it would be the Mixolydian mode because it is the perfect match for the dominant 7th chord in Major Theory.
With regard to the topic of this thread, a hybrid scale was created that is extreamely popular and used by many Blues players. It was created by incorporating the Mixolydian mode and the Blues scale, which became known as the Mixo-Blues scale. It is the Mixolydian mode with a b3rd and a b5th added.
The Mixolydian mode intervals are; 1-2-3-4-5-6-b7
The Mixo-Blues scale intervals are; 1-2-b3-3-4-b5-5-6-b7

Originally Posted by: dvenetian
The Mixo-Blues scale intervals are; 1-2-b3-3-4-b5-5-6-b7

I haven't heard of this scale before, thanks.

Originally Posted by: Ian HandI haven't heard of this scale before, thanks.

Anytime. Hopefully you can put it to good use.

i havent heard of this scale before either.. isnt it just 2 notes short of being chromatic?

Originally Posted by: iceandhotwaxi havent heard of this scale before either.. isnt it just 2 notes short of being chromatic?

I was just thinking that as I was making myself a cup of tea.

Originally Posted by: iceandhotwaxi havent heard of this scale before either.. isnt it just 2 notes short of being chromatic?

Let's break it down and see.
Say we use the "A" Mixo-Blues scale and the Chromatic scale starting at "A". Let's use all # notes for the accidentials to make it uniform.
"A" Mixo-Blues = A-B-C-C#-D-D#-E-F#-G
"A" Chromatic = A-A#-B-C-C#-D-D#-E-F-F#-G-G#
It looks like the Mixo-Blues is missing the m2,m6 and M7 intervals from the Chromatic.
I have seen (rarely) the M2 and the M6 intervals removed from a hybrid scale and they still called it the Mixo-Blues scale. The intervals are;
1-b3-3-4-b5-5-b7 . To me, it's not the Mixo-Blues scale, it's just the Blues scale with an added 3rd.
Some refer to the Mixo-Blues scale as the "Super Blues Scale". Rather than referring to combining the Mixolydian mode and the Blues scale, the Super Blues scale combine the Major and minor Blues scales to get the same result.
Major Blues scale = 1-2-b3-3-5-6
Blues scale = 1-b3-4-b5-5-b7
Super Blues scale= 1-2-b3-3-4-b5-5-6-b7
Same intervals as the Mixo-Blues scale.
Each chord derives from a scale and with the Dominant 7th chord being so popular in Blues, I refer to this scale as Mixo-Blues because the Dominant 7th chord derives from the Mixolydian.
Blues is known to use many Chromatic passages, which gives it's sound that flavor. When choosing what to play for a Blues sound, it helps to know what and where to play it. So if you play a I7-IV7 progression, remember that the
b7th of the IV chord would be a b3rd to the I chord .
Even though the Mixo-Blues scale is a 9 note hybrid, it doesn't mean that all of the notes have to be used from it in a progression. Pick and choose where to emphasize.

I refer to the Mixo-Blues/Super Blues Scale as the Super-Imposed Pentatonic scale. There really is no REAL name for the scale, except the ones we tag it with.

The reason I call it the Super-Imposed scale is that you take two simple and common scales, the Blues scale (includes the Minor Pentatonic scale) and the Major Pentatonic scale and you super-impose them to create two scales that act as one...really it's two SOUNDS that act TOGETHER as ONE.

You can come to a HUGE revelation if you make up a blank fretboard diagram/grid, pencil in a 1st position G Blues scale, now pencil in a 1st position G Major Pentatonic DIRECTLY on top of the G Blues scale...super-imposing the scales.

You should see all these chromatic passages now! But don't think of them a "one note after the other" but use the sound of each scale in conjunction with the other. You end up with a two sound over one chord.

Plus you can move that big scale along to the Root of each chord in a Blues progression.

But, learning to deal with the two sounds is what's going to determine how good it sounds. So, don't just run up and down those chromatic passage but use them to "connect" the two sounds.

If you look closer into the Super-Imposed Scale you'll find a number of things...The Blues, Minor Pent, Major Pent, Mixolydian, Dorian, and more!!!!

I have a 50+ example tutorial at my lesson site: http://lessons.mikedodge.com ...you get audio, tabs, diagrams, explanation, and more.

It's the Advanced Pentatonics Tutorial link at my site. MAKE SURE you read the Introduction as it will explain a WHOLE lot more on the subject, and then the examples will keep expanding the idea...I'll even show you how to use the missing notes to use a full 12-tone scale!!!!

I'll show how it can be used to pretty much any style of music, since it uses all 12 notes.

Enjoy.

Originally Posted by: Ian HandOK I’ve been thinking about this for quite awhile now: Why does the Pentatonic minor scale or blues scale (which is also a minor scale) sound so good over certain Major chord progressions (e.g. I, IV, V)?

My thoughts on this are that the Pentatonic minor and Blues scale although they both have a flattened 3rd (which makes them minor scales) they do not have a 2nd note. This I think makes them more ambiguous sounding compared to the Natural minor scale, for example, which does have a 2nd note which emphasises the minor nature of the scale.

Anyone else have any theories why these two minor scales sound good over some Major chords?

Let's take an A blues, for example. Easy stuff, I IV V7 . If you play in an A minor pentatonic, it shouldn't sound too horrid because you can get away with implying a 7th chord over the major chord. This means that you can now play g and it will sound good. You can also get away with the minor third now, because it becomes a sort of leading tone due to its relationship with the 7th. One of the most famous jazz/rockabilly licks takes advantage of this. Play C, C#, E, G, A, A with two eighth notes, two sixteenths, and two eighths with a triplet feel to hear what I'm talking about and the kind of relationship.

But if you just continue to emphasize the minor third and don't resolve it to either A or the major third--I'm not sure of how good that would sound. I guess you could also get away with it because the minor third extends the chord further.

What was said above--those scales--are all based around chords. Usually the reason why those hybrid scales work is because they are implying extended intervals of the chord that are consonant, usually past the octave level--i.e. 9ths, 13ths.



So yeah, a long way of saying that your original thought was correct. Pentatonic scales simply are more ambiguous and the tones you use in them serve to extend the chord, rather than becoming dissonant. ((Just try playing a minor 6th over a major chord--it's over!))

Originally Posted by: PlatonicShred
So yeah, a long way of saying that your original thought was correct. Pentatonic scales simply are more ambiguous and the tones you use in them serve to extend the chord, rather than becoming dissonant. ((Just try playing a minor 6th over a major chord--it's over!))

I agree with C Schlegel's post, which points out that this statement is literally the other way around. Being that the scale emphasizes it's determining factor from it's origin and resolves, makes the progression less ambiguous. Ambiguity would leave the progression undefined, or without an obvious definition to the genre. In other words, the sound could be interpreted in ways other than the Blues.
Here's some examples of ambiguous statements.

Walk into a restaurant and the sign reads, "Please wait for Hostess to be seated". A Rather vague way to interpret what the sign actually means.

And another one, "Why did I get a ticket on my car when the sign says",
"Fine to Park Here"?????

More ambiguous tones can be interpreted in more than one way. How you play the progression, leads the Ear to indentifying the statement being made.

Music is a language. We indentify "M" as Major and "m" as minor. In the following statement, "I need to polish the Polish furniture", the minor will resolve to the Major. Vice Versa just wouldn't sound right.
The range of a gifted Vocalist seem to just flow with resolution by accenting their vocal chords with identity.

My Brain hurts...........................

Originally Posted by: iceandhotwaxi havent heard of this scale before either.. isnt it just 2 notes short of being chromatic?

Ok...I think things are a little unmusical here.

My take on the above is that one errs in regarding this as a 'scale'.

Play PHRASES using smaller clusters of the notes. See how some notes lead well to others. See how some by themselves SUCK. Pick different subsets & use them only in making up little phrases by varying the timing.

Keep the same timing & vary the subsets of notes.

Do NOT regard it as a SCALE. It's pointless.

Originally Posted by: dvenetianI agree with C Schlegel's post, which points out that this statement is literally the other way around. Being that the scale emphasizes it's determining factor from it's origin and resolves, makes the progression less ambiguous. Ambiguity would leave the progression undefined, or without an obvious definition to the genre. In other words, the sound could be interpreted in ways other than the Blues.
Here's some examples of ambiguous statements.

Walk into a restaurant and the sign reads, "Please wait for Hostess to be seated". A Rather vague way to interpret what the sign actually means.

And another one, "Why did I get a ticket on my car when the sign says",
"Fine to Park Here"?????

More ambiguous tones can be interpreted in more than one way. How you play the progression, leads the Ear to indentifying the statement being made.

Music is a language. We indentify "M" as Major and "m" as minor. In the following statement, "I need to polish the Polish furniture", the minor will resolve to the Major. Vice Versa just wouldn't sound right.
The range of a gifted Vocalist seem to just flow with resolution by accenting their vocal chords with identity.

My Brain hurts...........................

If you play a pentatonic scale over a major chord, the simple fact is that that scale IS more ambiguous than a full-on Major scale. So, yes, if you want to talk about a pentatonic scale relative to itself---you're right, it's not ambiguous because pentonic progressions do and can resolve.

This isn't the statement, at least as I have interpreted it, the question was---why do some minor scales sound good over major chords? Is it because they are more ambiguous?

Now, if you're talking about a blues scale relative to a major chord with respect to the DEFINING intervals of a major chord---I believe that the blues scale is more ambiguous. The third and the root are the most important notes in a major chord. In the blues scale, the root is clearly defined, but the third really isn't the main focus---it's all about the diminished fifth. Just try it, omit the third of a blues scale and work your way around it, I bet it still sounds pretty gosh darn bluesy.
The blues scale really doesn't have a third, it has I and then an augmented second.

So you are right, the blues scale is not ambiguous per say on its own, but in terms of what intervals are important and its relativity to the traditional major scale---it is more ambiguous. The minor third is not necessary to create a bluesy feel--it just isn't. And we've already talked about how a dominant seventh is perfectly fine over a triad major chord. Those two notes are king in blues.

Of course....if you are playing F# blues over A major I can tell you why it sounds good---you're probably implying a major 6th chord---which does sound nice. Not sure though.

Again, you guys can disagree as you see fit--music theorists disagree all the time about things. Hope I elucidated what I mean by ambiguous though. When you are putting a blues scale in a soundscape of major, there is more ambiguity around the central 'strong' notes of a major chord. Just more my school of thinking and where I come from.

Originally Posted by: RobSm
Play PHRASES using smaller clusters of the notes. See how some notes lead well to others. See how some by themselves SUCK. Pick different subsets & use them only in making up little phrases by varying the timing.

Keep the same timing & vary the subsets of notes.

Well Said. Very good Points made.