what is good or bad?

Ok, Ace brought up many really good points. I would just like to take the time to comment on some of them. For the last couple year's the new way of life is to teach tolerance and fairness. Ok, its a very nice idea but what about before this time? Were the generations of yesteryear wrong for the last, Oh, i dono, 2000 years?

I really dont mind gays, i dont mind if they even get married, but there was a time AND not that long ago where to be openly gay, was pretty much suicide. Now i just want to ask, Why was that?

And another thing, about that bible comment. What parts of the bible do you take literally? Thou shall not kill?

OH that! HAHA! That wasn't ment to be taken literal! POW!

OK its fustrating, things have changed and its fustrating. I am scared to wake and hear about another holocaust. AND i better not hear one of you say the holocaust never happened because it HAPPENED. I used to listen to my grandfather cry his heart out every night, his screams are still with me(he is dead now, he died in his sleep-the doctors say the nightmares scared him to death, they should could let him live). He had a number on his arm, he had the face of the expereinced man, and he had the stories. And thats same with both my grandparents.

Where was the tolerance then. I am sorry about that i get a little emotional sometimes and it popped into my head so i just typed away

Anyways, the drastic change in the morals of todays society is shifting to fast for me and i am a religious man and i follow my religion. My teachers have studied the bible and the oral bible (jews believe G-d told the written bible to Moses, and another set or rules and other specifications which we call the oral torah[bible]). Anyways so just to sum up what i believe makes things good or bad is a higher entity i like to call G-d. And i am pretty sure no one can have a problem with that. You may now have problems with G-d but you are gonna have proplems with him anyways.
G-d got me fired. G-d made my wife and my dog run away. Blah Blah Blah so whatever thats what i believe.

Yes, very narrow minded but thats what i believe.

And about tolerance, just because you tolerate something doesnt mean you feel its right. I believe in tolerance but i dont have to believe homosexuality is a good thing.

sorry if i upset anyone with this thread, but the whole subject can get pretty touchy.

Originally Posted by: KutzkiOK its fustrating, things have changed and its fustrating. I am scared to wake and hear about another holocaust. AND i better not hear one of you say the holocaust never happened because it HAPPENED. I used to listen to my grandfather cry his heart out every night, his screams are still with me(he is dead now, he died in his sleep-the doctors say the nightmares scared him to death, they should could let him live). He had a number on his arm, he had the face of the expereinced man, and he had the stories. And thats same with both my grandparents.

I never did understand why people said the holocaust never happened. To me that was like saying stone henge was never built. All the camps are still standing just like stone henge. There's blatant proof that they both exist and there're more facts and proof that the holocaust occured than there is about stone henge. Some people just have too much time to think about things that should just be laid to rest.

Originally Posted by: Kutzki
What parts of the bible do you take literally? Thou shall not kill?

I believe in tolerance but i dont have to believe homosexuality is a good thing.

My stance is this: there are lessons in the Bible, morals, if you will, that teach us how to live our lives. I can't go over all of them, but let me say that some of them still, in my opinion, should hold true today. Others, however, should not.

What angers me about the last comment is not that you think homosexuality is a bad thing, but I am angry for the homosexuals. They have a right, just like any one of us, to be happy, to be [U]free[/U]. We should not only give this right to them, but embrace their differences. That's what makes America such a great place to be in. What you are saying makes sense, but the question that comes to my mind is - what about them? They'll never feel comfortable here knowing that, although you may accept them, you don't like them. Once again, I must ask, are they not people to?

Originally Posted by: PonyOne Hell, there's a popular resurgence of anti-semetism taking place in many parts of the world...

In some readings I have found of anti-Jewish cultures, they claim anti-semetism is the same thing as religious zeal, that they coexist, you can't have one without the other. I'm like, "What?! What happened to the teachings of J. C.? Hello? Love your enemy?"

Originally Posted by: Kutzkium actually i was serious and i sorta forgot something you will also be weaker in your old age, maybe i did say that
eh

and to iiholy
i seriously dont give a flying **** about someones presenation cus it can all be a mask to hide the real facts
i mean ya its nice and all if the dude doesnt look like he came out of an alleyway but seriously this is only a thread and i dont really proof read the things i write and if i did the truth is it probably wouldnt be any better but i really dont care as long as my point gets across to the read whatever

so if you are finished being a spaz about my stupid grammer/english is and how bad i did in highschool that would be real nice

rock on dudes

I wasn't spazzing for one. Rarely on this board do I ever get into arguement because of this reason. I was justifying why I picked on your grammar. Maybe it was a low blow. But it felt like that when you were debating against me as to why you didn't like gays, when all I was saying that there is prejudice against gays.

I apologized for taking a "low blow" or whatever, but as I said before homosexuality is a really personal issue to me. Especially people saying there isn't prejudice against them.

There's prejudice against everyone and everything. And I find it often so stupid and out of whack that I can't believe that the people whom are expressing their anger are just doing it because they've nothing better to do with their time and have thought way too much on a topic that they don't like. And the media doesn't help since they're apt to hype up whatever will provoke a reaction, even if it means shoving something that someone hates in their face thus encouraging the prejudice. It's reasons like that that I find it best to just not associate with such a thing. I'm not against gay people in any size shape or form. Nor am I against any religion or ethnicity. But I'm not going out of my way to defend them either. I find it best to just step back and let the masses do their thing. I'm not involved with any of that crap as it is so I'm not going to jump right in the middle of a war I don't wish to fight. Certainly not knowing that I'm not going to make it better. If I could make everyone drop their prejudice by joining ranks then maybe I'd consider it, but there will always be someone out there that chooses to remain on the other side so why bother? People will still have their own opinions and I can tell them mine all I want but I can't make them care. Certainly not when X amount is more likely to talk over me vs listen to me. And here's where I explain myself in this state of hypocrisy. I've expressed my feelings on religion as well as many other things here. In various threads I've gotten quite in depth with things and I was actually on the debate team in high school. But my stance on the debate team and here has always been "all I really care to do is tell my side" I've never thought I was going to change someone's opinion. Never even tried to. I was more so interested in giving my opinion for others to think about. It seems like a fair trade. If someone offers their opinion then I should be allowed to freely offer mine. But hell. I dunno. I'm a walking contradiction. I didn't expect on posting such an elaborate post, but I don't feel like proof reading it and shortening it so what you all get is the first draft right here. Feel free to let me know if I suck or anything.

Hearing the phrase "walking contradiciton" always makes me think of Green Day. How's that for a deep thought?

Originally Posted by: The AceMy stance is this: there are lessons in the Bible, morals, if you will, that teach us how to live our lives. I can't go over all of them, but let me say that some of them still, in my opinion, should hold true today. Others, however, should not.

What angers me about the last comment is not that you think homosexuality is a bad thing, but I am angry for the homosexuals. They have a right, just like any one of us, to be happy, to be [U]free[/U]. We should not only give this right to them, but embrace their differences. That's what makes America such a great place to be in. What you are saying makes sense, but the question that comes to my mind is - what about them? They'll never feel comfortable here knowing that, although you may accept them, you don't like them. Once again, I must ask, are they not people to?

I must say, you really are a smart one. I agree whole heartedly but when i said i dont have to like homosexuality i meant the act. I have freinds who are gay. They are definitly people, i just get my morals from the bible and my bible tells me homosexuality is a bad thing. I do things that my bible tells me not to do also. And when i do them i feel bad. I also feel bad when my freind or freinds are doing something they should be doing. So pretty much the only thing i dont agree with you is we shouldnt be running at them screaming "BE A HOMO" but heaven forbid we should be screaming "DIE HOMO." Heaven forbids we should do that. That isnt even the right approach anyways. I just wanted to point out that lil diffrence.

Originally Posted by: Cryptic ExcretionsI'm not going out of my way to defend them either. I find it best to just step back and let the masses do their thing.

Two thumbs up dude. Right on the button! :o

Originally Posted by: Cryptic ExcretionsI find it best to just not associate with such a thing. I'm not against gay people in any size shape or form. Nor am I against any religion or ethnicity. But I'm not going out of my way to defend them either. I find it best to just step back and let the masses do their thing.

Are you familiar with an Elie Wiesel? Elie Wiesel taught others about the "perils of indifference," about if you're not part of the solution - you're part of the problem. He called indifference a disease... most of the world today figures, "hey, it's not me.... it's not my problem."

Indifference is found everywhere. Take the holocaust for instance (I know it's a heavy subject, but it is the most striking) - all of Germany couldn't be Nazis. What happened to all the everyday citizens? Why didn't they do anything to stop it? The most likely answer is fear.

The human race, as a whole, cares about its own problems... I'm not trying to bash you Cryptic, I think you're a good guy, but that thought sort of came into my head when I was reading my post. One of my friends had to present an Elie Wiesel speech to my English class...

I must say, you really are a smart one

Why, thankyou!

Originally Posted by: The AceThe human race, as a whole, cares about its own problems... I'm not trying to bash you Cryptic, I think you're a good guy, but that thought sort of came into my head when I was reading my post. One of my friends had to present an Elie Wiesel speech to my English class...

No offense taken. It's a good point, but I was raised to not interfere and I've had some run ins in the past where I felt it necessary to put my two cents in and it ended up biting me in the ass so since then I find it best to just keep it to myself. A personal satisfaction if you will... maybe a selfish preferance but none the less.

sorry ace but i think i would have to disagree with you on that one

i think if you just step back and just leave things sort themselfs out then it can come out out better than forcing it down people throats

for example all the concern funds for people in third world contries

im deeply sad that alot of them live in poverty and are homeless, but at the same time i (and so many others) are sick to death hearing about it.

I agree with Ace, I heard too that if you arent the part of the solution, the you are a part of the problem and I believe it. Its like when people vote, I believe it is called voter apathy, thinking your one vote can't make a difference. Say you don't like one candidate that well, but you can't stand another, so you just decide not to vote all together, If you aren't voting for the one you would rather have, it is not supporting either, so in a way ,is supporting them both the same, if that makes sense. But, I see Cryptic's point how sometimes it is best to let the cards fall where they may, which in some does turn out for the better.

Originally Posted by: Danny C.I agree with Ace, I heard too that if you arent the part of the solution, the you are a part of the problem and I believe it. Its like when people vote, I believe it is called voter apathy, thinking your one vote can't make a difference. Say you don't like one candidate that well, but you can't stand another, so you just decide not to vote all together, If you aren't voting for the one you would rather have, it is not supporting either, so in a way ,is supporting them both the same, if that makes sense. But, I see Cryptic's point how sometimes it is best to let the cards fall where they may, which in some does turn out for the better.

But if you're not part of the problem, are you part of the solution? Yes one vote can make a difference, but what's the probability of an event where one vote will make a difference?

Well, first think of the typical school "loser." The bullies are picking on him, and nobody will stand up for him. What do you do? Stand there and laugh, so you, in turn, won't be laughed at? To me, that's not right.

And if that is the least extreme example, let's go to the most extreme example - the holocaust. If you're, say, a citizen of Germany, who is not a Nazi, and not a Jew (and not a homosexual, etc... let's say you "pass" by Hitler's ridiculous standards) - do you just let it happen? In essence, you're seeing the bullies pick on others. What do you do? Hope it will resolve? Yes, it may. But what if it doesn't?

At least if you do something, then you can say that you tried, rather than just "leave things to sort themselves."

-my thoughts

but in that extreme example people would be killed if they stood up to the nazi government and said it was wrong.

in some cases yes i will agree with you ace but not in all cases

i think tha some times you should just turn a blind eye for your own personal safety.

Originally Posted by: The AceWell, first think of the typical school "loser." The bullies are picking on him, and nobody will stand up for him. What do you do? Stand there and laugh, so you, in turn, won't be laughed at? To me, that's not right.

And if that is the least extreme example, let's go to the most extreme example - the holocaust. If you're, say, a citizen of Germany, who is not a Nazi, and not a Jew (and not a homosexual, etc... let's say you "pass" by Hitler's ridiculous standards) - do you just let it happen? In essence, you're seeing the bullies pick on others. What do you do? Hope it will resolve? Yes, it may. But what if it doesn't?

At least if you do something, then you can say that you tried, rather than just "leave things to sort themselves."

-my thoughts

But things were still solved without every last person's support. Some times things just don't need everyone showing their opinion and taking action, regardless of how extreme. Having experienced the joyful lifestyle of being the one picked on by the bullies in high school I can honestly say that you're right. No one helped. Do I hold it against them? To be honest I'd never thought about blaming them for not helping me until you just mentioned it. And I still don't. They didn't make the bullies bother me. The bullies were bothering me and to blame the others is just looking for a place to point the finger. Things did sort themselves without anyone else's help. I graduated and support myself while those bullies are off getting **** faced and/or drugged up every weekend. Things just take time with or without other peoples' help. Time is just a measurement of change.

"In Germany they first came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me —
and by that time no one was left to speak up."

-Pastor Martin Niemöller


That's what I feel.

i still think that in some situations you should step back and just leave things ride out( not in all situations of course) it just like the saying goes....." with democracy bring disgruntal minoritys, if the minoritys do not like the way the majoritys work, then a even smaller minority would not like the way the bigger minoritys work. i hardly think that all the minoritys in germany during hitler reign just let him put them in camps, they most likely put up a fight but where delt with by force. for an example if 2 people where fighting with knives. do you become part of the problem if you do nothing about it? or do you become the solution if you get involved?

I am not sure if I understood what you are trying to say but it seems to me that you think that when Hilter was in power it was a fair fight
-like how you illustrated a fight between two people- having a knife fight.

Well that wasn't exactly the case.

The Jews didn't have and army and they sure as hell didn't know how to fight. And the other minorities;them fighting back was infintial and useless.

So in the case of Hitler would you feel it your duty to step in and do something about it. Or just take 3 step back and let 6 million people die. Maybe take a couple steps back, turn your back towards Germany and cover your eyes too?

It really is circumstantial.

It really depends on the case.

If to people are having a knife fight and there is a way to stop it - stop the bloody fight.

If its a fist fight and a fair won. Get in line and place your bet!

If a bully is picken on a kid half his size- beat the buggers outta that bully and teach him a lesson.

Whatevern - it sorta depends if they want the help and if its in the persons best interests.

Sometimes people dont want help but in some cases it is good to force your help apon that person. For example - people which need mental help and watnot. K I think you get it. I got to go anyways so Later yall
and keep on rocken
"dude, never get mixed up with politics man, just play the gig"